If you own a hobby farm or have livestock on your property, then this episode is worth listening to.
We delve into the topic of guardian dogs and how they can assist farmers and landowners in protecting their animals from predators.
We cover the basics of starting out with a guardian dog, as well as the precautions to take. If you haven't considered a guardian dog before, this episode will provide you with new insights and alternatives to stock protection and management.
Linda van Bommel
Guardian Dogs: Best Practice Manual for the use of
Livestock Guardian Dogs
Don't forget to subscribe or leave us a review. I'd love to hear from you.
Drop me a line at hello@wildheartpets.com.au.
If you own a hobby farm or have livestock on your property, then this episode is worth listening to.
We delve into the topic of guardian dogs and how they can assist farmers and landowners in protecting their animals from predators.
We cover the basics of starting out with a guardian dog, as well as the precautions to take. If you haven't considered a guardian dog before, this episode will provide you with new insights and alternatives to stock protection and management.
Linda van Bommel
Guardian Dogs: Best Practice Manual for the use of
Livestock Guardian Dogs
Don't forget to subscribe or leave us a review. I'd love to hear from you.
Drop me a line at hello@wildheartpets.com.au.
Guardian Dogs and Livestock Protection
[00:00:00] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Hello. And in today's episode, we are going to be talking about livestock guardian dogs. And this was prompted by one of my episodes talking with Dr. Bradley Smith about dingos and an alternative way to manage the livestock predation issues.
[00:00:17] So, my guest today is Linda Van Bommel, who has very kindly joined me. She's an expert in this area and has written loads of publications about lots of topics, but particularly on livestock predation and the use of guardian dogs, and that's why she's here with me today.
[00:00:35] Linda's a researcher associated with A N U College of Science and also University of Tasmania. Her areas of expertise are in conservation and biodiversity and terrestrial ecology. Her research interests are in predator, ecology, human-wildlife and wildlife conflict, wildlife management and conservation, which all sounds.
[00:00:57] Amazingly rich and [00:01:00] interesting topics, Linda, so welcome to the podcast and thank you for joining me today. I'm really looking forward to talking to you and learning a lot more about Livestock Guardian Dogs.
[00:01:09] Linda van Bommel: Thank you. And thank you for inviting me.
[00:01:11] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Just a little bit about your background, I guess just to fill in, my very brief background, how long have you been working in these particular areas?
[00:01:20] Linda van Bommel: Oh, that's a good question. I've been specifically working with livestock guardian dogs since, I think it's 2008, when I started my PhD. Specifically looking at livestock guardian dogs. But I've been interested in conservation for a very long time, and human wildlife conflict and livestock predation as well, and ways to deal with those issues.
[00:01:43] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And after talking to Dr. Smith, it just, it really dawned on me that there are other ways to deal with livestock predation that could be, better handled than the use of lethal baits. So that's why I'm keen to learn more about where this whole [00:02:00] area is and where it's going. So let's start with the basics, Linda.
[00:02:05] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: What exactly are livestock guardian dogs?
[00:02:08] Linda van Bommel: Livestock guardian dogs are specific breeds of dogs that have been usually been bred for a very, very long time for the specific task of guarding livestock from any threat basically. So in most cases, that's predators that would come into attack livestock, but in some cases, it can also be, for example, human thieves that might try to steal some stock.
[00:02:34] The dogs. Basically live with livestock 24 7, and they protect them from any and all threats that arise. They tend to be quite large breeds of dogs, and like I mentioned before, they're usually very specific breeds of dogs that are specifically bred for this task.
[00:02:54] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Livestock guardian dogs have been used worldwide or are being used worldwide, but I [00:03:00] understand that all the breeds that are used worldwide are not necessarily available in Australia.
[00:03:06] So, what are the breeds of Livestock Guardian Dogs that are commonly used in Australia?
[00:03:11] Linda van Bommel: Yeah. In Australia, the most commonly used breed is the Maremma sheepdog, and this is just something that grew historically. But you're absolutely right. I mean, I think worldwide, there's over 45 different breeds of livestock guardian dog that exist and that are being used to protect livestock.
[00:03:29] But I think in Australia we only have about. Oh, by now, maybe about 10 different breeds available, and most of them occur in very low numbers only, and people would be struggling to find, an individual of that breed. But like I said, the, the Maremma sheepdog is the most commonly used here in this country to protect livestock.
[00:03:49] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And in other countries I was reading, I mean they, they can be used say in the US to guard against wolves and quite large predators. And that's not the case that we have [00:04:00] here. Does that determine which type of dog is better for what kind of predators? Because here we have what? Dingos, foxes are probably the largest ones.
[00:04:10] And apart from human beings,
[00:04:12] Linda van Bommel: Yes. Yeah, we don't have anything much bigger than a dingo, really, that would come in and eat livestock other than human thieves. But look as, as far as I've been able to determine, Most breeds of livestock guardian dogs come from countries where the predators are much larger than what they are here in Australia.
[00:04:31] I mean, like you mentioned, in the US, in lots of cases that the main predators are wolves or bears, and the same goes for Europe. Most of the predators people deal with there are wolves or bears or Linx. So most of the breeds of guardian dogs have been developed and have evolved over time to be able to deal with those large predators.
[00:04:53] So honestly, any predator we have here in Australia, the largest of which is the dingo, all the breeds [00:05:00] should be able to handle them easily. There should not be any issues with that whatsoever.
[00:05:03] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Because it does boggle my mind thinking about a dog going up against a bear.
[00:05:08] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: But there's different mechanisms that these dogs kind of use that nature sort of sorts out to allow them to, in some cases, deter predators without.
[00:05:18] Coming into physical contact, can you talk a little bit more about that?
[00:05:22] Linda van Bommel: Well, I mean, the thing to keep in mind too is that something like a bear. Yeah, they're, they're a really large predator, but from the Bear's perspective, all they are after is an easy meal, right? I mean, that's, that's part of the reason they go for livestock because it's, it's much easier to eat a sheep than it is to have to hunt down a deer and then kill and eat it.
[00:05:44] But then of course, if you add a livestock guardian dog to the mix who is suddenly putting itself between the bear and the sheep, then suddenly that sheep is not such an easy kill anymore, and to get to that sheep, that bear has to [00:06:00] confront the guardian dog first. And the vast majority of the time it's it.
[00:06:04] It just involves too much risk. And most predators are very, very good at risk assessment and doing everything they can to keep themselves safe. Because the last thing that bear wants is to involve a guardian dog in a fight and get that conflict happening, potentially get injured in that fight. Still not get the sheep, and then suddenly the bear is injured and it has to recover from these injuries, which then threaten its survival.
[00:06:35] So usually just the fact that that guardian dog is there and is making a lot of noise and yeah, it, it's pretty much just making it so much harder for the predator to gets to that easy prey. That's enough to just make the predators, yeah, change their mind and go, yeah, well, okay, well that easy sheep isn't so easy anymore.
[00:06:56] It involves a lot more risk, but maybe it is better to go hunt [00:07:00] down that deer instead.
[00:07:01] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And I think I read in your report, which was so full of amazing information, is that, the scent markings that I guess the dogs do, which signals to other dogs that there's a dog in the area.
[00:07:14] And in this report, I read that wild dogs are very territorial and that, that, that would include the dingo too, right?
[00:07:21] Linda van Bommel: Yeah. Dingos are very territorial.
[00:07:23] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: So once they know that there's a dog in the area, they're less likely to cross over into that, into the territory. Is that right?
[00:07:30] Linda van Bommel: Yes, I would assume so.
[00:07:32] I certainly believe that they are. I definitely think that predators, especially predators like dingos who are a canid themselves and who are very territorial and do a lot of scent marking themselves to, demarcates boundaries of the territory. I very much believe that. Can learn that there's are livestock guardian dogs in a certain area and learn to recognize those guardian dogs scent marks. And whether they then decide [00:08:00] to stay out of that area altogether or not? Either way. Even if they trespass into the guardian dog area, I'm sure that they are very aware of the fact that there are guardian dogs around. So they're going to be much more cautious in what they do, and they're going to be much less likely to take the risk and go hunt some sheep, for example, than they would otherwise be.
[00:08:21] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Is that the same sort of situation as say, a fox?
[00:08:24] Linda van Bommel: Yes it is. I think it'd be very similar. look, foxes are very smart animals. Foxes are, again, reasonably territorial species who use a lot of scent marking themselves as well. So I'm pretty sure foxes can also learn to recognise that there are guardian dogs in a certain area.
[00:08:41] Pretty much read the signs that the dogs leave everywhere in within their own range. And it'd be a very similar principle that those foxes that do choose to enter that range, they're just going to be so much more cautious because they know that, well, they're trespassing, basically. Right? So they, they know that there's potentially a guardian dog that [00:09:00] can rock up any minute, well, between a fox or a guardian dog that fox is going to run, he's, he's not going to even try to confront a guardian dog.
[00:09:07] Suellen - Host of The DogPod:
[00:09:07] And here's a very Australian question, and I have chickens and, what about goannas being, being a reptile? I read somewhere they're a bit sneaky, so they probably wouldn't want to try and get a chicken. But your thoughts,
[00:09:26] Linda van Bommel: I don’t know, do I actually, I'm not a hundred per cent sure if goannas eat chickens or not.
[00:09:30] They'd probably eat the eggs, I would imagine. But even then it's, the thing is too, like a goanna is not going to be a threat I would imagine, to a sheep or go to a cow. So people would only use guardian dogs around chickens, potentially have an issue with goannas. And then I would still imagine that goannas are goanna be most active during the day and the dogs are going to be hanging around anyway.
[00:09:53] They tend to be really alert. So I'm, I'm not sure if a Goanna would recognize a, [00:10:00] a territorial scent mark from a guardian dog, but I, I don’t know, I, I'd be surprised if they do, maybe they can learn. But even then it's, even if that's is a completely different mechanism, I mean, those dogs are still going to be hanging out with the chickens, and when they see something like a goanna rock up, then they're going to go out there and bark at it and harass it.
[00:10:20] And he's probably. Similar situation as with the bear that go is not going to risk its own health and safety just to get an egg or, or a chook.
[00:10:28] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: So the, livestock guardian dogs, they, deter predators with just their presence and scent marking, and then they also obviously bark as a warning to let them know that they're there.
[00:10:39] And then in the very last instance, there'll be physical contact if there's no other alternative, is that correct?
[00:10:46] Linda van Bommel: Yes, that would be my assessment of the situation. And I think that the barking is, is also very much part of these dogs just broadcasting that, “hey, hang on this, this little patch of land is occupied” because [00:11:00] anybody you talk to will tell you that a guardian dog does a lot of barking, they pretty much bark, and bark and bark.
[00:11:07] They're very noisy. I think it's part of the way that they work.
[00:11:10] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Just talking about their sort of characteristics. Because they have very particular characteristics that make them both physical and, just behavioural that make them suitable to be around livestock.
[00:11:22] Linda van Bommel: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I should probably really point out here is that a livestock guardian dog is not a herding dog.
[00:11:31] Like sometimes people get a little bit confused. Then when you're talking about dogs that work or live with livestock, especially here in Australia, most people would instantly go to kelpie or Border Collie because that's what most people are used to. But a livestock guardian dog is very, very different. I would not trust a Kelpie or a Border Collie with livestock unsupervised becasue they'll probably start chasing them and having a bit too much fun.
[00:11:57] Whereas a livestock guardian [00:12:00] dog, they pretty much it, their job, they, they live with livestock 24/7 and without human supervision, and they should be completely trustworthy with their stock. They should not harm them. Now if you also look at a guardian dog and say, for example, a Border Collie, if you have them side by side, they look very different too.
[00:12:21] Like the Border Collies, they pretty much with their pricked ears and their whole behavioural repertoire of the whole eye and stalk and chase, they're pretty much little predators. they have. that look and that feel to them, and that's what makes the livestock move away from them, and that's why they're so, so successful at herding stock from, from one location to another.
[00:12:43] Whereas if you look at the livestock guardian dog, they, well, they tend to be quite large dogs, but regardless of that, they tend to have floppy ears and quite rounded features. And in their behaviour, they tend to be really cautious and [00:13:00] calm and gentle, especially when they're around livestock. They're pretty much the complete opposite of a predator in that regard and their whole behaviour and demeanour around stock.
[00:13:11] It's, it's all to be as non-threatening as possible and pretty much just to fit in with the livestock really.
[00:13:17] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And they tend to find places to sit, don't they? Where they can watch over the flock?
[00:13:23] Linda van Bommel: Yes. A lot of them do like doing that, especially during the day. Um, if there's a, a slightly higher spot in a paddock, that's often where you'll find them and they'll just sit there and they'll just keep an eye on everything.
[00:13:34] And at night it's when they're most active and they go around and they go scent mark everywhere and bark and, deal with any threats
[00:13:43] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: They can pretty much look after any kind of livestock, can't they? From cattle to sheep to chickens.
[00:13:50] Linda van Bommel: Yep. Anything, anything that they grow up with, they will guard later in life.
[00:13:56] I've even heard of people that have had livestock guardian dogs with [00:14:00] emus and ostrich's to protect them. Uh, Lama alpacas, any. More conventional type of livestock, I suppose, such as chickens or sheep, goats, cattle. I've even heard of people having livestock guardian dogs on deer farms and protecting the deer from threats.
[00:14:18] It's, it's pretty much whatever they grow up with, they learn to associate with and they'll guard it when they grow up.
[00:14:24] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And that brings me to my next question, which I think is, not a complicated area, but it is just that whole bonding question between the dog and the livestock. So they have to grow up around these animals, whatever it is that they will be guarding ultimately.
[00:14:41] But can they swap between, say, you've had goats and then you decide to get sheep, will they bond from one animal to another. Very bonded to those, that original group of livestock that they grew up with.
[00:14:55] Linda van Bommel: It's, it depends. It's actually a more complicated [00:15:00] question.
[00:15:00] I think you'll hear me say it depends a lot.
[00:15:03] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Yeah. Okay.
[00:15:04] Linda van Bommel: It depends on how strong that bond of the dog to the original stock is. Um, it depends on the age at which you try them to swap them. And it depends on the individual disposition of the dogs. Because I've, I've heard of people that do it very successfully.
[00:15:20] You do have to take them kind of through a new bonding period if you want to swap them from, say, I don't know, sheep to cattle or goat to sheep or whatever. So if you want to do a complete full swap, you have to re-bond them to the new species. But it's certainly not impossible. It can be done, and in most cases, it works quite well.
[00:15:41] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Take me through the whole process of, going to find a dog, selecting a dog, because I'd imagine from a litter of puppies, not every dog is going to be like great at. guarding livestock or are they, and then the whole training and then the maintenance part and the interaction with humans because they tend to be [00:16:00] more bonded to their livestock than they do to people.
[00:16:02] So can you walk me through that very complicated process?
[00:16:07] Linda van Bommel: Sure. I'll try. So I guess, when it comes to selecting a puppy. There's various sources people go to actually get a guardian dog. There's quite a few breeders around Australia now who will sell registered and pure bread guardian dog puppies.
[00:16:25] If people would like to have them for guarding livestock, I would very much recommend they specifically look for a breeder of working line, guardian dogs. There's a lot of farmers that breed their own dogs and will then sell pups that they don't need. From my part, that comes with a word of caution, that if somebody just gets a puppy from a farmer or breeds them themselves, that they do make sure that it's actually a guardian dog that they are buying. Because sometimes they get cross-breed, and that's not a very good situation to [00:17:00] be in. So when, when you find somebody that you're going to get your puppy from, selecting the right puppy from the litter, it's difficult.
[00:17:08] People do try to do puppy tests to find out which puppy is most suited for which job or what they're going to turn out to be. But research has actually shown that the results from those puppy tests, especially with really young pups, are not really all that related to the adult dog. So even though you think you've got these great six criteria to select a puppy from, Then there's actually very little guarantee that the adult dog is going to turn out what you thought the puppy test were showing.
[00:17:38] So that's a little bit difficult. Generally, people just get pups randomly from a litter. You are right though, there are some dogs that don't really take to livestock guarding and that would very much prefer to be a pet, but that is very much the minority. It's only a very small percentage of dogs that would turn out that way, I suppose.
[00:17:58] So when, when you've got a puppy, [00:18:00] you bring the pup home and then it's very important if you want that dog to guide livestock that when you come home, you put the puppy in. A puppy bonding pen with the livestock. So it's incredibly tempting when you bring this little ball of fluff home to take it into the home with you and snuggle on the couch with it, basically.
[00:18:22] But the best thing to do if you want to have a good working dog later in life is to stick it into a pen with some livestock, and that livestock would have to be the stock that you want the dog to get later in. And, of course, you bring home a tiny little puppy, usually eight or 10 weeks. So you have to make sure that the livestock you put that puppy with is going to be pretty gentle and it's, it's not going to attack the puppy or try to harass it or anything like that, that you have to make sure that that stock is going to be very accepting of the pup.
[00:18:53] And you usually stick them only in a small pen, like maybe four by four meters initially. And of course, you need to look [00:19:00] after the pup. You need to go out there and feed it and check on it and make sure everybody's all right. And in such a small area, you'd have to feed the livestock too. And then from there on, it's, it's basically just a gradual process as the pup matures, you slowly increase the area that you keep it in.
[00:19:17] So you go to a slightly bigger pen and a small paddock, bigger paddock, et cetera. But you also increase the number of livestock that you keep it with. And as the dog grows up and matures and gets older, you can also increase the difficulty level of the livestock. For example, if you're bonding a puppy to sheep, you could stand out with a little puppy with some potty lambs, for example, and you would not put some young rams in with a little pup.
[00:19:44] That would just be a little bit too much. But once that dog starts growing up and, and grows physically itself and mentally matures, then at some stage it's going to be able to handle those rams and, and then it's important that it gets introduced to the Rams as well.[00:20:00] And then it's, it's pretty much a process of you keep increasing the size of the area and the number of livestock until it's out there in the paddock doing its job.
[00:20:08] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And these are very much outdoor dogs, aren't they? I mean, you don't bring them in and, and as you said, snuggle up with them on the couch.
[00:20:16] Linda van Bommel: Well, you can, if you want, if you have them more as a pet or if you have them more as like a general property guardian rather than, a specific livestock guardian who's out in the paddock 24 7 looking after the stock.
[00:20:29] It just depends what you want the dog to do later in life really.
[00:20:32] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: I was thinking more of the working dog. That's actively, actively guarding the livestock.
[00:20:37] Linda van Bommel: No, the, the actively guarding livestock working dog is, is going to be out in the paddock 24 hours a day because you want them to be out with the animals at night because that's when the predators are going to be most active as well.
[00:20:49] If you start bringing them in at night, then they're not going to be so effective anymore. Or if you start bringing and in during the day, it, it's, it's the same thing because then while dogs or [00:21:00] foxes or whatever your main predator are, they're going to learn pretty quickly that that dog's not going to be there during the day.
[00:21:05] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: I also read in your report that sometimes people actually use automatic feeders for the dogs as well.
[00:21:11] Linda van Bommel: Yes, they do. Yeah. It's, it's an easy way to feed them. They're actually pretty good at regulating their own food intake. They're not like a Labrador who'll just sit on the bag of food and eat till they burst.
[00:21:23] I mean, there's exceptions though. I think I've come across one dog that was like that, but with all the others, even with automatic self-feeder, it's a bigger issue to keep weight, proper weight on these dogs than it is that they overeat. It just doesn't seem to happen in these breeds so much.
[00:21:42] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And how much human contact would they need? Because obviously, as the owner of the dog, you want to go and check on its welfare and make sure it's healthy, and, you need to bond with it to a certain degree.
[00:21:53] How often would owners actually go out and spend time with the dog?
[00:21:59] Linda van Bommel: Once [00:22:00] the dog is working in the paddock, it depends a bit on the management of the property.
[00:22:04] I know a lot of people will go out daily just to, to check on their dogs and make sure everything is still okay. They often then also just feed the dogs themselves on a daily basis, so they would not have self-feeders. But I know on, on some other really large properties where daily checks just aren't practical because there's too much ground to cover.
[00:22:24] They'll set up self-feeders for the dogs, and they'll go out once a week, and they'll refill the self-feeders and then check on all the dogs and the stock and usually combine it with the water run for the stock. So, it very much depends on the management of the property and what the owner would like.
[00:22:38] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: So just while we're talking about that … I mean, it sounds like livestock guardian dogs can be used on everything from a small property to a large property. And I think I'm going to get another, it depends answer, but we'll talk about how many livestock guardian dogs you need to control how big a herd.
[00:22:55] If you had to say a small hobby farm, say if you had chickens and goats and a couple of [00:23:00] cows, would they look after mixed stock or do they tend to bond with one particular kind of stock?
[00:23:06] Linda van Bommel: No, they're quite happy to look after mixed stock.
[00:23:09] There's quite a lot of hobby farms out there where they've got a guardian dog and they've got a little bit of everything basically, and the dog just happily potters around during the day and just looks after every single species they have on that property. That's not a problem. It all comes back to the way they're raised again because if that puppy gets raised like that right from the start, then that's what that dog is going to be used to, and that's what the dog's going to be doing later in life.
[00:23:34] Suellen - Host of The DogPod:
[00:23:34] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: So what is the ratio of dog to livestock?
[00:23:38] Linda van Bommel: You're absolutely right. It depends.
[00:23:41] Look, it's, it's a question I get asked a lot now. Well, people will approach me and say, well, I'm thinking about getting into guardian dogs, but how many dogs do I need? It's a really difficult question to answer because it depends on so many variables.
[00:23:54] So, it depends on the type of livestock you run. For example, it seems that people who [00:24:00] run goats, will need a higher number of goats than people who, for example, run sheep. It depends on the main predator in the area. Like if you're in a wild dog region, you'll need more guardian dogs than if you only have foxes in your area.
[00:24:17] But it also depends on the type of terrain on the property. Like if you have, a hilly property with lots of natural vegetation remaining, like lots of trees and bushes, that's a much more difficult situation for a dog to work in than if you've got a flat property that's all grassland. So in on the hilly,
[00:24:37] Highly vegetated area, you'd need more guardian dogs than on a flat grassy property. So it's, it all very much depends on people's individual situation. It depends on how many livestock need protection. It depends on the size of the property. I've become reasonably good at giving people an initial estimate if they can [00:25:00] answer all those questions for me.
[00:25:01] So I'll ask them, what stock do you run? How many, what is your terrain? What is your vegetation, what is your main predator? And I can come up with a reasonable guess about where people should start if they're serious about protecting all their livestock with guardian dogs. But then I'll always say that, okay, well, use X number of dogs as a starting point.
[00:25:23] Get them all organised. Get them all working. Properly on your place and see how they go. If you find that predation has not been adequately reduced, add another dog or two just keep going that way. That's, I find the easiest way to do it. It's been really hard. I've tried to come up with a model cause I mean, if I can, if I have this feel for giving people a very good estimate of where to start, then you should be able to model it right then.
[00:25:51] A computer should be able to tell you the same, but I'm not sure if my IT skills are just not up to scratch or if I'm doing stuff wrong, [00:26:00] but I haven't been able to come up with it yet.
[00:26:02] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Maybe you can ask chat. G P T?
[00:26:04] Linda van Bommel: Yeah, maybe I should, I really,
[00:26:08] Most people come up with an estimate about the number of livestock. And it's certainly an important part of that initial estimate, but all the other things are important too.
[00:26:17] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: What are some of the challenges of using live. Guardian dogs. You mentioned the barking.
[00:26:23] So again, it depends on your rural property and how many neighbours you have, I guess is one thing, so is the barking an issue on smaller farms?
[00:26:34] Linda van Bommel: It can be, yes. It can very much be an issue. It, it all depends on the neighbours. Yeah, how tolerant they are. Whether they understand what guardian dogs are for?
[00:26:45] Because I find if people understand the function of the dogs, they tend to become a lot more tolerant of them as well. But look, I mean, some people just really don't like dogs. So if they've got a neighbour that's got a barking dog for a lot of the time, then that can certainly cause issues. I mean, obviously, on larger [00:27:00] properties that's less of an issue because the neighbours are going to be so much further away.
[00:27:03] But it can certainly be a problem.
[00:27:05] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And would they bark more at night than during the day?
[00:27:08] Linda van Bommel: Yes, generally speaking they do.
[00:27:11] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And what are the other challenges? I guess I'm thinking about neighbouring properties, really, more than the vast stations and things like that.
[00:27:20] Linda van Bommel: I found with the research I've done, there's, there's a few.
[00:27:24] Problems, recurring problems. I suppose with that different people have experienced, the barking is certainly can be an issue. Another issue can be that if people cannot adequately contain their guardian dogs and they start roaming, that they might end up on a neighbour's property, which, again, can lead to a lot of problems with neighbours who don't want strange dogs on their land.
[00:27:47] Another issue that I found can really occur is that livestock guardian dogs are a very different type of dog than what most people are used to. Most people, [00:28:00] especially here in Australia, are used to Kelpies and Border Collies or maybe something like a Labrador or golden retriever or a shepherd and guardian dogs have very, very different temperaments
[00:28:11] Even people who are aware that their difference exists can still have a lot of trouble initially when they first start out with guardian dogs. Adjusting to that and really wrapping their head around how to properly manage and bond and treat these dogs. And that can lead to problems too,
[00:28:30] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: because I can imagine livestock guardian dogs are probably not as eager to please as the regular companion dog.
[00:28:37] Linda van Bommel: Not at all. A livestock guardian dog doesn't really care what you want, maybe. Well, that's not true because, I mean, it's not that you cannot train a livestock guardian dog. You certainly can. There's yet it's, they're not untrainable. It's just that they've been bred for a very long time to protect livestock.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] And they're out in a field or in a paddock, and usually that's without human supervision and they have to make up their own mind about what they need to do at that point in time. So if, for example, you're trying to call a guardian dog to come to you and that guardian dog thinks it's seeing something in the distance that needs dealing with.
[00:29:20] Then you can call until the cows come home, but that dog's going to go check out what's happening in the distance rather than come to you. Whereas in another situation, provided you have a reasonable connection to that dog, you might call it, and it'll go, oh yeah, okay. And then it will come. It just very much depends on what's happening around it and what's going on, but they will very much make their own decisions and decide for themselves what needs to be done and what requires their attention at that particular point in time. And often that's not their human.
[00:29:51] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And do they respect fences?
[00:29:54] Linda van Bommel: They can. It depends.
[00:29:58] I find that if [00:30:00] puppies get raised from the start in a situation that they cannot get through fences, so they very much get into that mindset that, oh, there's a fence there. I cannot cross it, so I can't get out. They will respect fences, and they will not go through. But if, from a young age, puppies learn that fences can be pushed.
[00:30:23] Or you can get under them if you just push hard enough. Then they don't respect fences when they're older. They'll just go through whenever they can.
[00:30:29] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Are they climbers?
[00:30:30] Linda van Bommel: Well, some of them are, but, uh, in my experience, the majority of the guardian dogs that I've seen here in Australia, they'll go through a fence if they can, like, for example, through a kangaroo hole or a wombat hole, they'll go under a fence.
[00:30:44] If they can again, kangaroo or a wombat hole or whatever else has gone through before them. But they tend not to jump or climb a fence so much. There are exceptions, obviously, but in all the time that I've done research on these dogs and all the [00:31:00] dogs that I've seen, I've only ever come across one dog who would actually climb a fence.
[00:31:05] And he jumped a fence really well too, but that was the only one.
[00:31:09] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: On a positive note, let's talk about the benefit and who can benefit from having a livestock guardian dog.
[00:31:15] Linda van Bommel: Sure. Any person who's experiencing livestock losses can benefit from a livestock guardian dog. That's really a simple answer.
[00:31:23] In this case, it really does not matter what type of livestock they run or they're losing, or what type of property they're on. If they're suffering losses from livestock, they can benefit from having a guardian.
[00:31:37] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Because the other alternatives are, not very nice really, are they? We are talking about lethal control of some kind, whether it's baiting or shooting.
[00:31:47] Linda van Bommel: That is used a lot here in Australia. Baiting, shooting, trapping, especially on larger properties because, I guess on smaller hobby farms, they're usually a lot more restricted in what type of lethal control they're [00:32:00] allowed to use. Although shooting is always allowed, I think, but especially on the lines of properties, baiting, trapping and shooting are very commonly used to protect livestock.
[00:32:10] There are non-lethal control methods available, of which the livestock guardian dogs are one. Some people also use alpacas. Or donkeys to protect their stock. Fox lights are getting a bit more popular at the moment, especially with poultry, and there are a few other methods available.
[00:32:29] But the vast majority of predator control is done through means.
[00:32:33] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And why do you think that is in this day and age, is it simplicity? Is it habit? Is it convenience? Because, from your report, you show the financial difference between having a livestock guardian dog and also the predation changes from, say, using a conventional method like baiting to using a livestock guardian dog. And to me, that looked like a very positive comparison. [00:33:00] So why do you think people still continue to use lethal methods?
[00:33:04] Linda van Bommel: I think when it comes to the whole lethal control, it's a good question. I think it is convenience. I think it's something that grew historically. I think right from the start that Australia was settled and people started growing livestock here. Lethal control has always been used.
[00:33:22] It's people were always shooting, baiting and trapping. Initially, mostly dingoes, I suppose, but later also foxes and whatever other predators came along. So I think it's something that's just been done for such a long period of time here in Australia. That, that's become the status quo? I mean, you're talking to farmers too.
[00:33:41] It's also very much that traditional attitude that, well, I'm using it because my dad used it and my granddad used it. And it, it's always worked very well for us. And I think it's very much a mindset here in Australia. And it's very much reinforced by there being a lot of support available for lethal [00:34:00] control, government support.
[00:34:01] There's farmers' field days teaching people what the most efficient ways are of putting out baits or how to put out a trap to catch a fox or a dog or whatever. But there's no support available for any non-lethal method. It's quite recent. I think the first Maremma sheepdog, for example, was, was imported into the country in the eighties.
[00:34:22] And they've, they've grown a little from there. But obviously before that time, lethal control was already well and truly used and well and truly established in this country. So it, it's, it's a relatively recent method and most of the other non-lethal control methods are even more recent than the guardian dogs.
[00:34:39] It's hard to say, but there's just not the same amount of support available for it, and it's, it's just not very much, first and foremost in people's minds,
[00:34:48] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: I guess, with the push for dingo conservation and management. That's made me a little bit more aware of what the alternatives are because I think the dingo gets caught up in [00:35:00] that catchall wild dog term, doesn't it?
[00:35:03] And even here, locally, there's been some chat about wild dogs and monitoring where they are, but. You can see the conversation leaning towards lethal control. And nobody's even talked about non-lethal control. And I don't know how you start that conversation, particularly when there isn't a financial incentive too, and there's an investment in time, I guess, in buying and raising the dog and and training it and all this sort of stuff.
[00:35:28] But imagine once you've done that, it becomes easier over time.
[00:35:33] Linda van Bommel: Yes, it does. That initial startup phase does tend to be quite difficult for people with livestock guardian dogs, especially first-time users of livestock guardian dogs who want to get into using this method. And especially if you're talking, I suppose, about more traditional Australian farmers, because if it's a farmer who's already come from Europe himself, for example, and has that background already, it's much easier because they're more used [00:36:00] to working with these dogs. But most Australian farmers do have a lot of startup issues, using guardian dogs. However, if they see it through and they get them working, then from then on it's, it does become a lot easier. And it's, it's just a matter of maintaining the dogs that are working on the property rather than just starting from scratch again.
[00:36:20] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And can you talk about the case studies that I mentioned where you did do the financial comparison between the lethal control or methods used prior to guardian dogs and what the cost difference was and what the drop in predation was?
[00:36:34] Linda van Bommel: Oh, I have to try, I have to dig it off the top of my head.
[00:36:37] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: I won't ask you to recite numbers, but just in general terms.
[00:36:41] Linda van Bommel: Yeah, sure. Well, one property, specifically comes in mind because I'm quite familiar with them, and I've actually done quite a lot of research on their guardian dogs as well. So this is a property in Northeastern Victoria. They measure about 3000 acres, I think from memory.
[00:36:57] And when I did the case study on them,[00:37:00] they would've run 2000 sheep from memory, a thousand sheep, somewhere between one and 2000 sheep anyway, and prior to using livestock guardian dogs, their main method of predator control was shooting. Because they did try a little bit of trapping and they did try a little bit of baiting, but it was all very complicated cause it was quite heavily regulated in their area.
[00:37:22] So their main method was to pretty much just find a spot on the property, camp out there and wait for a dog to come past a wild dog or a dingo and then shoot it. And they just ended up spending so much time just sitting out there waiting for dogs to come past. It was pretty much a full-time job for two people, and even then, they were pretty much literally being eaten and out of business.
[00:37:48] They did not get any lambs in the last couple of years before they got livestock guardian dogs because all the lambs got eaten by the dingos. So I think they had a, a lamb survival rate of [00:38:00] 10%. I think. And in addition to that, they still ended up losing a hundred or 200 adult sheep each year as well to the wild dogs.
[00:38:08] And this was still with people sitting out there on the property. Full-time job waiting for dogs to come through and they, they shot quite a few too, but they just could not get on top of the predation issue and it was just not financially viable anymore, which, made them decide that they had to try something else.
[00:38:26] And they turned to livestock guardian dogs instead, and they got four dogs Working on that property took a little bit of time for them too because obviously, you can imagine if you bring home an eight-week-old puppy, it's not going to protect livestock that well. You have to wait for that dog to mature a little bit and grow up a bit physically and mentally be able to deal with the threat of a dog or a wild dog, before they can go out and guard your sheep.
But once they got to that stage, they stopped sitting out on strategic points to wait for the wild dogs to come in. They didn't have to do that anymore. So it pretty [00:39:00] much freed up full-time jobs for two people who could then invest their time on working on the property.
[00:39:05] And in addition to that, the lambing percentage went up to 70 percent. And they stopped losing adult sheep to the dingo predation. So, it made a huge difference for these people, and for them, it was actually the difference between being able to run sheep and having to make the decision that it was just not viable to run sheep anymore and get out of sheep altogether.
[00:39:30] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Well, that's a really, that's an extraordinary example of how it, it can work.
[00:39:35] Linda van Bommel: Yeah, it is. you'd be surprised that there are actually quite a few of those examples around of people who who are literally being eaten out of business by wild dogs are dingos, and then as a last resort measure, turn to guardian dogs and then manage to just turn the whole system around and continue growing sheep in an area that would otherwise not be viable for ship production.
[00:39:59] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: That's extraordinary.[00:40:00] And you mentioned earlier that you know some of the challenges of livestock guardian dogs for people who are not used to the animals. Do you know whether or not they get surrendered to the R S P C A or some other group because people just can't manage them.
[00:40:17] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And can those dogs be successfully re-homed or repurposed to some other livestock?
[00:40:23] Linda van Bommel: Again, it depends. in my experience, if a livestock guardian dog doesn't work out the way somebody expects it to, whether that's the dog's fault or the person's fault, that doesn't matter. In this particular case, the dog is not what the person expects it to be, and they get fed up with it. They don't want it anymore. On most farming properties, unfortunately, the dog just ends up getting shot, so it's nobody's problem anymore. On some of the smaller properties, people will go out of their way and try to rehome the dog, or the dog might end up in rescue.
[00:40:58] Cause I think by [00:41:00] now, pretty much it's each state in Australia has a livestock guardian breed-specific dog rescue. A few will end up in rescue or people will just try to, to sell the dog or rehome the dog. Some end up in pounds, and that's if they end up in a pound and they don't get adopted, they still end up going to rescue.
[00:41:20] But it's, it tends to be that, that most Mareemas or other breeds of guardian dogs that do end up in the pound or with rescue, tend to be from people who live in the city and who then find they can't keep the dog and they'll be the ones to surrender the dogs, whereas on the property or the farmers, just more likely to shoot the dog.
[00:41:39] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: I guess the purpose for my question was, if somebody didn't wait for the 12 months or however long it takes for the animal to grow up and bond with their livestock, is it possible to get one of these rescue animals and over time bond it to the stock that you want it to look after [00:42:00] becasue you don't have that downtime?
[00:42:01] There is obviously some bonding time, but you don't have to, like, feed a puppy and try and train it for 12 or 18 months before it becomes a working dog. Yes. So can you make use of these dogs that have been surrendered or dumped?
[00:42:17] Linda van Bommel: Yeah, you can, in a lot of cases you can. It depends a little bit on the background of the dog, but I've heard great success stories even with dogs that were originally kept in town, just in somebody's backyard, then got surrendered, went into rescue, got retrained with livestock and just went on and had a very successful life as a livestock guardian.
[00:42:38] It very much depends on the background of the dog, what it's been through, what it's been exposed to, the individual temperament of the dog and how much patience the person has who tries to retrain the dog. And honestly too, the, the experience of the person doing it, but there's absolutely no reason they can't.
[00:42:57] I know some breeders will actually also hang [00:43:00] onto their pups for a, a slightly longer period of time and then sell them as six months olds or eight months olds, or, or year old dogs, just to help you. Some people get started with that initial process and make everything a bit quicker for the farmer, I suppose.
[00:43:15] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Well, that's, that's a really good idea.
[00:43:17] Linda van Bommel: Yeah. Which I think is a fantastic idea. And I think it becomes, if somebody could just set up something where they specifically, I suppose, produce, for lack of a better term, slightly older dogs who've already gone through all that initial bonding and habituation phase, and, pretty much like you said, they'll still need some adjustments to a new property and new stock, but it'll be a much quicker process than when you start with a little pup.
[00:43:44] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: And just on a final note, because we're just about out of time, but you have a Maremma as a pet. Do you want to tell me a little bit about her? Where you got her and how, how she is? And because she's on the bed … so she's a house dog, right? [00:44:00]
[00:44:01] Linda van Bommel: Yeah, she is. But she, she didn't used to be. She, look, she's a pet now.
[00:44:06] And she pretty much lives as a pet with me, but she is also an ambassador dog for her breed. Like if I go out to farm at field days, for example, if I get invited to give a talk about Maremmas, I give the people the option and if they, accept it, then I'll bring her along so that the people who attend the field day can at least meet a Maremma.
[00:44:26] She's come to a few workshops with me. She was going to come to a guest lecture with me at, university in Queensland, but unfortunately Covid hit and we couldn't go. But, but that's her job at the moment. So she's, she is a pet, but she is also an ambassador dog for her breed to, to teach people about Maremmas and let them meet one who's pretty friendly for the breed.
[00:44:48] But her background is actually, she was part of, a research project that I was involved with, and she grew up a proper livestock guardian dog. Like the first four years of her life, she lived with [00:45:00] livestock with sheep, and she guarded them. But then we, we decided as a group that she wasn't really working out in the project so well, and she needed to be rehomed.
[00:45:08] And at that particular point in time, I had just bought a property myself, and I've always wanted a Maremma. But before that, I lived in town, and I didn't want to have a Maremma in town. So it all just lined up, and I took her home and reeducated her. And here we are.
[00:45:24] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: She looks loving too.
[00:45:26] Linda van Bommel: Yeah she's lovely.
[00:45:27] She's such a nice dog. I reckon she would be fantastic in one of those roles, like, you know, how they get those therapy dogs that you take to hospital or to bathrooms or things like that. She'd excel at that cause. She's, she really is a pet and she just loves people.
[00:45:45] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Yeah. That's great.
[00:45:46] Well, on that note, Linda, I'm just going to say a big thank you for sharing all your knowledge today, and that's been a really interesting chat. All my chats are interesting, but yours is very interesting.
[00:45:57] Linda van Bommel: Thank you for having me. I can talk about [00:46:00] guardian dogs for hours, days, probably so anytime.
[00:46:05] Suellen - Host of The DogPod: Well, I'd love to have you back sometime. But it's been great. Thank you very much.
[00:46:10] Linda van Bommel: You're very welcome.