English Cocker Spaniel Puppies with Anna Hatherly

Thinking of getting an English Cocker Spaniel puppy? Then be sure to listen to this first! 

In this episode, we talk to Anna Hatherly breeder and Puppy Co-ordinator for the Cocker Spaniel Society of NSW., about the best way to go about getting a puppy, what to look for in a reputable breeder and what to expect when you bring your new puppy home.

0:07 Welcome to the Dog Pod.
1:15 How did you get into showing Cocker Spaniels?
3:42 What's the best way to start looking for a Cocker Spaniel
5:22 Grooming cocker spaniel.
10:30 What are some of the most common genetic diseases that affect Cocker Spaniels?
12:28 What is Cocker Rage? 
16:29 What are some questions to ask a breeder when looking for a puppy?
19:38 How long should you wait for a puppy?
21:35 What is the process for re-homing older dogs?
25:44 How long does it take for a puppy to settle in?
30:15 What are some warning signs to look for when choosing a puppy?

For more details on Anna and the Cocker Spaniel Society of NSW
Cocker Spaniel Society of NSW website
Contact number: 0419 242 331 (before 8:30pm) (Secretary)
Puppy and Older Dog Availability
Anna Hatherly
0409 047 693 (before 8:30pm)
Rescue
Royoni Cocker Kennels
(02) 9606 8093

Bellebriar Kennels - Anna Hatherly
Anna Hatherly
0409 047 693 (before 8:30pm)

Don't forget to subscribe or leave us a review. I'd love to hear from you.
Drop me a line at hello@wildheartpets.com.au.

Transcript

Suellen Tomkins: 0:07

Hello and welcome to The DogPod where we're sharing amazing ways that dogs enrich child everyday lives, and how we can enrich their lives and return. I'm Suellen, the host of the dog pod and each fortnight we'll have guests and discussions about why dogs are actually man's best friend. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And we'll see you in The DogPod. Today it's my absolute pleasure to have Anna Hatherly with us today. Anna is a member of the cocker spaniel Society of New South Wales. She's also the wonderful breeder of my boy, Ben, who is just perfect, of course, and today and is going to talk to us about all things English Cocker Spaniels, and more importantly, the aspect of puppies and getting puppies, what to look for, and whether or not they're suited to your lifestyle. So welcome, Anna. And I would love for you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and your role within the cocker spaniel society as well.

Anna Hatherly: 1:13

Hello, thank you for having me. And yes, I started in dogs in 1973, with an Afghan Hound that I started showing and showed Afghans for many years. We then had a beautiful boxer that I did obedience with. And we absolutely adored him. And when he finally passed, our children were young then and we were looking for a breed of dog that had the same temperament as a boxer. But we ... the children... could take for a walk. So an old school friend of mine had Cocker Spaniels and my brother actually had a Cocker Spaniel as well. So we decided that that was what we were going to get. And we did. And the pet dog re ignited my passion for showing. So then another dog arrived, which I started showing, and then another dog and another dog and the rest is history. So I joined the Cocker Spaniel Society because they obviously meeting up with other fellow enthusiast in the breed and for showing. Started out just as a member then got on the committee, then became treasurer for three or four years and I became secretary for about 13 years. And I handed over just a few years ago when we moved down here to Mollymook. And now I run the puppy register. So doing that I help people put people in touch with reputable breeders to find a puppy or an older dog, whichever they they are after.

Suellen Tomkins: 2:52

And that's how we met. I think I was looking for a black and white female puppy and I ended up with a black male, older dog. And I don't regret it a one little bit.

Anna Hatherly: 3:08

Yes, well, he is a beautiful boy.

Suellen Tomkins: 3:11

Yeah, it certainly is.

Unknown: 3:13

So I thought today we'd focus this talk more about puppies, I guess having seen the whole COVID .. what happened during COVID when people were looking for puppies and puppies were very hard to come by, particularly purebred puppies, there seemed to be a lot of confusion around about best way to go about getting puppies and there was a slight amount of desperation too, so people were kind of looking everywhere and there are a lot of puppy scams happening as well.

Suellen Tomkins: 3:42

So I wondered if if somebody starting out looking today said they're looking for an English Cocker, what would you suggest would be the best way for them to start looking?

Anna Hatherly: 3:53

Well, the best way is to contact the breed society in whichever State you live in. So you've got the Cocker Spaniel Society of New South Wales, you've got the Cocker Club of Victoria, Cocker Club of Queensland, ACT, Western Australia and South Australia. If you're in a State that doesn't actually have a club, you can contact the Dogz, either New South Wales, Queensland, Tasmania, each branch of pedigree dogs has an affiliate setup in the States so they can then put you in contact with breeders.

Suellen Tomkins: 4:37

When people are actually looking well, let's talk a little bit about the temperament of an English Cocker to so what would you say to people that maybe were thinking about getting a Cocker but maybe aren't that familiar with the breed? What sort of things should they be considering when they're looking?

Anna Hatherly: 4:58

The most important thing is the Standard states merry and it states that three times or actually five times throughout the Standard. The Cocker is a merry dog. It should be it shouldn't be aggressive, it shouldn't be shy. It should be marry and happy. Does covers the whole gambit of what a caucus personality is,

Suellen Tomkins: 5:21

Okay. But there's a fair amount of commitment to grooming isn't it's not a you know, set and forget kind of dog, you can't just shampoo it and leave it alone.

Anna Hatherly: 5:33

You've got to be prepared to groom and unless ... a lot of people do get their Cockers clipped off, and that's fine. One of my daughters has two Cockers and she lives on acres and she just has them clipped off because it's easy for her to manage them that way. And you know, they're in and out of dams and things like that all the time. So it's easier for her to them clipped off. But you do need to be prepared to bath them every week to keep their coats clean, if you're going to keep that lovely, luxurious coat on them. And they need to be thoroughly groomed at least once a week and ears trimmed. You see a lot of these grooming parlours now with the advent of these grooming competitions, and they leave all this dead hair on the top of the head and thick hair around the ears. That's a huge nono for Cockers, the hair on the top of their head is actually dead here and it just plucks out. And if you don't cut the top third of the ears, trim it down with clippers, you then risk ear infections because all that coat the heat builds up in the ear canals. And then you can get yeast infections. And they are really hard to clear up once they get those.

Suellen Tomkins: 6:59

And the other thing I wanted to ask you about too, is just in terms of how much time you think you can leave a Cocker home alone.

Anna Hatherly: 7:09

You can leave them for as long as you train them to be left. It all stems from the very moment you get that puppy in your home, you need to start training it to have time on its own. Set up an area for it. That is it safe zone and teach it to be in that safe zone. And gradually extend the amount of time that it is left on its own. We leave a radio on for hours when we go out. Just give them something to chew on. Always make sure they've had a lovely walk if we're going out for the day. They've had a lovely walk before we leave them they just all pop back into bed and that's it. They're quite happy to stay there.

Suellen Tomkins: 8:01

I'm afraid I've got a FOMO (fear of missing out) dog. Would you recommend crate training?

Anna Hatherly: 8:09

Absolutely. 100%. Yes. Right. So safe areas for dogs. And also travelling with dogs, they're safer in a crate locked away where they can't get loose and cause damage in the car or heaven forbid jumping on top of you or but also it is illegal for dogs to be travelling loose in a car anyway. So yeah,

Suellen Tomkins: 8:33

I find Ben very comfortable in a crate in the car. So so obviously what he was trained to train to do. So the other thing I wanted to ask you about so I guess being a pedigree breeder, there are certain standards that you guys have to meet and part of that is the genetic testing that is often a requirement of some breeders. Yes. So could you talk to us a little bit about what that is, what that involves?

Anna Hatherly: 9:04

Okay, so being a member of the cocker spaniel Society of New South Wales, we sign to say that we will uphold the Standards and part of those Standards is genetic testing. So, with any of our breeding stock, we have a DNA test done for any of the tests that are available. So that we can then ascertain whether we have dogs that are either clear, carriers or affected by and there are so many different genetic tests now, but the main ones would be progressive retinal atrophy, Fn and AON. So that way, when we get our results back, we know what we can work with with other dogs. So that we're not eliminating anything from the breeding stock and gene pool.

Suellen Tomkins: 10:05

Okay, can you just explain what those three main tests were?

Anna Hatherly: 10:10

PRS (progressive retinal atrophy) is a it's where the retina will detach from the eye and it's early onset. So it happens in young puppies.

Suellen Tomkins: 10:25

Is that what they call Cherry Eye?

Anna Hatherly: 10:27

No, no, that is that is a different thing.

Suellen Tomkins: 10:30

Okay.

Anna Hatherly: 10:33

Cherry Eye is very, very rare, but I have seen it.

Suellen Tomkins: 10:36

Okay

Anna Hatherly: 10:48

If the retina detaches, then they go, they'll go blind at a very early age, you can get a later onset one, which can affect old dogs. But that's usually you know, when they're around 13 or 14. And in that case, you can have them go blind from any other things just you know, common old age, cataracts, things like that. So FN (Familial nephropathy) is kidney failure. So puppies are born. And this is a very serious one. They're born and their kidneys are failing, from the time they're born. So obviously, you would never ever breed dogs that are affected with FM. And then AON (Adult onset neuropathy) n is another very serious disease where they completely lose all rear end functions. And again, you would never breed with dogs that are affected by that disease. So there are three most important

ones, there are a lot of others: 12:01

you have coloured genetics, black hair follicle, but they're all very rare. And the they don't actually cause an issue as far as breeding goes, but the PRA FN and AON are the three most important ones that everybody should be testing for that are breeding Cocker Spaniels.

Suellen Tomkins: 12:30

And tell me about Cocker Rage, because I know that there was a lot of talk a lot of years ago about Cocker Rage, and I understand that it's a neurological condition. And it's not necessarily I mean, I guess Cockers have a bad reputation for for that. And still, there's a misconception amongst people about Cocker Rage. Do you want to just touch on that a bit as well?

Anna Hatherly: 12:57

Yeah, so 99.9% of the dogs that people would say I've got cockroach do not have Cocker age. They badly trained, badly bred Cockers. So Cocker Rage is a bit like someone having an epileptic fit. In my whole time breeding caucus, I've only ever come across one dog that was came from another kennel that I was looking after that actually had Cocker Rage. And it would be a perfectly happy, normal, dark, and all of a sudden, its eyes would glass over and it would just go ballistic, then it would stop shake itself and it was okay. Yeah. So the most issues I see today caused by badly bred Cockers, and generally because people for some reason, want gold Cockers. And gold is what's called a recessive gene. So, most of these backyard breeders will then breed gold to gold to guarantee that they're going to get a gold Cocker. Because in genetics, both parents have to carry that colour gene feed to produce it. So when you start breeding genetic, the jeans the gold jeans together, and you continue to do that you lose things in the breed. So you lose bone, you lose temperament. And that is where we see most of the issues coming and the people that contact us through the society. With these issues, they are all gold Cockers and they have all bought them through backyard breeders. So it is a really, really hard thing to

Suellen Tomkins: 15:01

okay. fix. It's a lot of it too is training, Cockers very smart dogs and if they think they can get away with it, they will put it over you. And a lot of times people have lost the ability to treat a dog as a dog, they treat them like humans. And dogs don't really understand that they don't know their place. You need to treat a dog as a dog with love and kindness and all the rest of it. But a dog is a dog, it needs to learn to sit, stay calm, and do as it's told. Otherwise, it's totally lost, and it loses its respect for you. And then when you want it to do something, it doesn't want to do it. Yeah. So the only way it knows how to say no is to growl and snap. Yeah. Okay. So when they're breeding gold to gold, they're actually and they lose that they're losing that merry temperament.

Anna Hatherly: 16:11

Yeah, yeah, you start losing the genetic diversity. So most, and most of us breeders, we outcross we do line breed, and that is what keeps your type. But you always have to out cross. So you bring in another, another line that's not as closely related to what you've got to keep that gene pool clean.

Suellen Tomkins: 16:44

So when someone's looking for a puppy, what sort of questions to suggest that they ask a breeder?

Anna Hatherly: 16:52

Well, you should always make sure that they health test the parents and you're well within your rights to see the health test records should always make sure the breeder shows their dogs or competes in one of the sports agility, obedience, something like that. Because if they don't, there really is no reason for them to have a litter of puppies other than the fact that they're doing it to make money.

Suellen Tomkins: 17:23

Okay. That's a good point.

Anna Hatherly: 17:26

Yeah. So I mean, we plan our leases for our next show, dog, basically. So we're looking at the best dogs available to go to our girls. Or vice versa, we're looking at the best girls come to our boys. So there's a lot of planning that goes into it in checking out pedigrees and temperaments and type and that sort of thing. So it's not just putting two dogs together and going, hey, oh, here we go. Now I can get $5,000 A puppy. Yeah, that doesn't work like that.

Suellen Tomkins: 18:03

Yeah. Okay. And just on the cost. I know that during COVID, there was a lot of crazy kind of talk around about how much a puppy would cost. And obviously, it's up to the individual breeder, but on average, what would a reputable breeder charging what kind of range would on average.

Anna Hatherly: 18:26

On average, you're looking around about three and a half to $4000 from a reputable breeder? Yeah, when you when you start hearing people charging five and $6000 for a puppy, that's just ludicrous. And if you start seeing people that charging different prices for different colours, or different prices for different sexes, or different prices for yes, you can have pedigree papers or no there's no pedigree papers. There. They're your puppy farmers. Reputable breeders, we don't do that all the puppies are raised the same. So they all cost the same. And every registered reputable breeder has to by law, sell the pedigree papers with the puppy.

Suellen Tomkins: 19:15

Okay. Okay, that's, that's really good to know. And what what would you say was an average wait time for for a puppy? I know that depends. Like, how many letters would would a reputable breeder have a year on average?

Anna Hatherly: 19:30

Most reputable breeders probably look at one, maybe two litters a year. Obviously, it depends when the bitch has come into season. And the weather can affect that as well. So you know, during the drought, we found pitchers weren't coming into season as often as they do in normal weather patterns.

Suellen Tomkins: 19:56

Really.

Anna Hatherly: 19:57

The it's I guess it's just Mother nature's way of not over producing on a world that couldn't. If they're in the wild, they couldn't feed the puppies. So yeah, the best idea is, once you've contacted breeders to get to know the breeder, and stay in contact with them, and they can then keep you updated with their plans and things like that; or just touch base with the society and you know, our breeders let us know when they're having puppies. Or we know when they've got litters planned, so then we can advise people. I think the main thing is people have got to learn to be patient. I know we live in a world of instant gratification, but it's a you can't decide that you want a baby and go out and get a baby tomorrow. You have to wait for that baby. And pets are the same. Yeah, you've got to be prepared to wait for that pet to come along, and not just buy the first dog you see.

Suellen Tomkins: 21:06

Yeah.

Anna Hatherly: 21:07

Make sure that, you know, that you bond with the puppy. That it feels right, that the puppy wants to be with you that, sort of let the puppy choose you basically.

Suellen Tomkins: 21:19

Yeah. And that's the other question I had to is the when you go and see puppies, like if somebody's had a litter and you can go, would it be normal to see the parents or just the puppy that you're going to buy? Or the entire litter? Like? What how does that process work? Or does it vary between breeders,

Anna Hatherly: 21:39

Well, speak for myself, as some breeders might vary, but I would want the people to see all of my dogs. All of the puppies, Mum, Dad if I used one of my boys. Dad's not always available. But now you might use a dog in another State, or you might have done an AI from semen from overseas. So it's not always possible to see dad. But the breeder should always have photos of dad if they don't have him there. But you would want to see all of the dogs that are available to see. Always make sure that you're comfortable with the breeder, that the conditions the dogs are kept in a clean, that all the other dogs are well looked after. You might not always see the whole litter, you know, depending on whether you come out before the puppies are actually old enough to go. Obviously, if you sort of going out after eight weeks, then some of the puppies might have already left. But you should be able to see the whole litter if you're there before that eight weeks of age, so you can see how they will react.

Suellen Tomkins: 23:01

And that would be the average age about eight weeks, eight to 10 weeks.

Anna Hatherly: 23:05

yeah, we're not legally allowed to let our puppies go until they're eight weeks of age. Most of us prefer nine to 10 weeks to let them go. It just gives them that little bit extra time with mum and the family. Obviously, they're all weaned by the time they go but eight weeks is I don't know who came up with the eight weeks of age, but it is not a really, really good age because it's a very impressionable age. So nine to 10 weeks is preferable.

Suellen Tomkins: 23:44

Okay, so if people can wait nine to 10 weeks that would be that would be much better. Yes. What about older dogs like re homing older dogs so obviously I got Ben, he was I think 18 months old and he's an absolute treasure.So I'd like to say to people don't discount getting a slightly older dog because some of the hard works been done for you which was perfect for my situation, like all the toilet training and all that sort of stuff. So is it a similar process? If somebody maybe is looking for a slightly older dog?

Anna Hatherly: 24:22

Yeah, yeah. So obviously we run puppies on to show in the show ring and they don't always work out. As Ben, the most beautiful boy, but hated the showring. Obviously then we have to find a forever home for them. So it's usually say to people it takes about three months for an older dog to settle in to a new home. But they do work. We've re homed a lot of dogs over the years and they've always settled in beautifully to their new homes. And, and for a lot of reasons, people don't always want a puppy. You know, we've we've had quite a few dogs go to older people. One couple who were worried about the dog out leaving them if they got a puppy. So they actually took a five year old girl from us that we had retired and she lived a beautiful life with them. So there's, there's all sorts of reasons why people want an older dog, and there are always older dogs becoming available to go and live a happy life with someone.

Suellen Tomkins: 25:44

Yeah, that's good to know, as well. And just the three months, there's isn't that there's like almost a rule of threes, isn't there three days to ...do you know? Yeah, tell me what it is. Yeah, it sort of takes three days to, to adjust, and then another three days to get used to the new area, and then another three s, but I would say take it in months, rather than, than days. So they need to be able to adjust to the new surroundings get used to your routine, and, and then give themselves to you. So you need to be patient. But it is worthwhile when they do. And people give them that time to settle in. Yeah, yeah, they just need time to be less fearful, which, as you can imagine, if you were just taken from your existing home and take it somewhere else by strangers, it take you a while to settle in as well. Well, it's like moving, if you move house, it takes time for you to get used to your new neighbourhood and your new home and things like that. So it's the same thing for the dogs. Yeah. And if people thinking about getting a new puppy, what sort of things would you suggest that they have at home for say, the first week or two weeks? What sort of things do they need to have to be ready for a puppy?

Anna Hatherly: 27:20

Well, I would always suggest a crate. A pen set up so that they've got a, they can put the puppy in a confined area. And an area that is just the puppies. We train all our puppies to use kitty litter or kitty litter tray.

Suellen Tomkins: 27:42

Okay,

Anna Hatherly: 27:43

so have obviously we use the Breeders Choice kitty litter, which is a natural product. So have a litter tray. Speak to your breeder to find out from them beforehand, how they train their puppies, because everybody's different. I mean, we use the kitty litter, some people use wood chips, and all different things. Some people use the pee pads, I just find the kitty litter the best because it doesn't smell and you just scrape it out, put it in the bin and away you go. Speak to the breeder first and find out how they have their puppy set up. So it's always better to have what they have. And then continue and then you can gradually change it to the way you want it to be as the puppy settles in. The crate is absolutely ... I would always suggest a crate and a small pen to keep them in in a confined area.

Suellen Tomkins: 28:55

And when would you suggest starting to leash train a puppy I guess training is a whole separate topic but just in terms of ... You can start straightaway. So okay, with our pups, obviously, we're training them for the show ring. I just start off with a little light weight show lead on them. And I'll put it on and I follow them around. Then as they get up because so that they get used to having something around their neck. And then after a couple of days of doing that and you only do it for three or four minutes. After a couple of days of doing that its just a little gentle tug, we'll go this way or we'll go that way. And then and you can use a food reward to get them to follow. But you just do it three or four minutes a few times a day just slowly until they get ... obviously you can't take them out on the street until they've had their first their third vaccination. So if you just do that in your garden, they soon get used to the lead and before you know, they're just walking along with you without the worry in the world Okay, that's a really good tip to start them early without making it onerous for them. That's kind of all the questions that I had. Is there anything else you think people should know about selecting a puppy ...

Anna Hatherly: 30:32

Obviously, when you go to look at your puppies, they should be robust, healthy, outgoing, clean eyes, no discharges or anything like that anywhere. They should have lovely, healthy looking coats, big fat bellies. You don't want any puppies that are going to slink away or hide in the back corner. Cocker puppies should all be all over you, climbing all over you all trying to get your attention. Clean yours, all that sort of thing. They just need to be healthy looking

Suellen Tomkins: 31:17

And while we're on that, what are some other puppies. warning signs? You mentioned, say, the whole pricing thing, like different prices for different colours and different sexes, and that's one warning sign. The general appearance of the puppies themselves. Maybe the hygiene areae there any other warning signs that people should look out?

Anna Hatherly: 31:42

Yeah, yeah, I would want to see the breeders want to sit spotlessly clean, I would want to see all the other dogs are clean and well looked after. Mum. Mum usually isn't looking her best by the time she's gotten to 8 weeks ... and she might be a little iffy, especially if you go maybe out to view the puppies at around four to six weeks and she's still with them. She might be a bit tentative. And that's fine, but she should come around. So even if she's a little bit barky and a little bit standoffish to start with, she should come around. Her natural, merry nature should overcome everything and she'll come round. So obviously, you wouldn't want any dogs that appeared to be aggressive or anything like that. You wouldn't want any puppies that appear to be aggressive, or cowardly. They should they should all be merry. I just can't stress that enough, they should be merry.

Suellen Tomkins: 32:51

The thing that I've noticed about Cocker and especially I guess, Ben is how eager to please they are. They're just driven to please really and so, being very gentle with them, like gentle sort of training as they're growing up is very important in having a Cocker too.

Anna Hatherly: 33:15

Yeah, but you must be firm because they will walk all over you. If they think they can get away with it, then they will. So you need to be gentle. You need to be kind, but you need to be firm with them. Because they are a very intelligent dog. I hear a lot of people go there Damn, well, no, they're not. They're not they're a gun. They're a gun dog. They're bred to work. So if they're not trained, they become naughty. And they look for naughty things to do to keep their brain stimulated. Yeah, so we've got a lot of people in our club who .. they're not show people but they compete in scent work agility, trialling with their dogs, gundog trials. And they do very, very well. These activities because it keeps their brains occupied.

Suellen Tomkins: 34:15

Yep, and that's a good thing too is to their people to be prepared to make sure that meals are stimulating they have interesting things to do during the day and they're just not left alone to be bored, otherwise they'll be disruptive.

Anna Hatherly: 34:31

Yeah, yeah. Then no dog is is is a good dog left alone they're they're bred to be with with humans and company so left alone for too many I don't mean just you know while you go to work or something like that. But if you're going to have a dog you don't have it and stick it in the backyard and forget about it, because that's that's just not fair to the animal. They're bred to be with us to be our companion so they need to be with us.

Suellen Tomkins: 35:03

Well, I think that's a good note to stop on, actually. So thank you for all your help and your words of wisdom. It's been wonderful having you and I'm so pleased to have a chance to speak to after all this time because I think we've had been now two years?

Anna Hatherly: 35:19

It would be longer because we've been we've been down in a Mollymook for two years.

Suellen Tomkins: 35:25

Okay. Well, he's a joy. So I thank you every day.

Anna Hatherly: 35:30

My pleasure.

Suellen Tomkins: 35:33

All right, Anna, I'll say bye for now. Okay, fine, very much. Bye bye. And don't forget to join us again in two weeks time. Until then, have a great week. We'll see you then. Bye bye.